http://www.thestar.c.../article/192203
The intent here is to clearly get funding, so these may not actually come to pass. But it's an interesting step. The examples mentioned are from Miller's campaign, but mostly line up with the map shown in the TTC document on the new streetcars and are a more aggressive extension of things that have been in planning already. Still, they say there will be a few surprises tomorrow.
0
Transit City LRT
Started by DavidH, Mar 15 2007 01:04 PM
418 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 15 March 2007 - 01:15 PM
It definitely sounds better than spending 2 Billion on a 8km subways line.
#3
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Posted 15 March 2007 - 01:20 PM
We may be stuck with that one, but if we can at least ensure that plans going forward make more sense, we're much better off.
The TTC (and later this year, the GTTA when they publish their plans) needs to provide politicians with a clear alternative to subways. Once they have one, the lower costs, greater reach, and faster construction times should be attractive.
The TTC (and later this year, the GTTA when they publish their plans) needs to provide politicians with a clear alternative to subways. Once they have one, the lower costs, greater reach, and faster construction times should be attractive.
David
#4
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Posted 15 March 2007 - 01:31 PM
Politics aside, I find it odd that York Region would have even considered building a subway in that area.
You think they would have focused their energy on extending the Yonge Line to Richmond Centre. The travel demand in that area is extremely high. Sometime down the road, both Toronto, and York are going to be forced to extended the subway, or build a totally grade seperated LRT line into York Region.
You think they would have focused their energy on extending the Yonge Line to Richmond Centre. The travel demand in that area is extremely high. Sometime down the road, both Toronto, and York are going to be forced to extended the subway, or build a totally grade seperated LRT line into York Region.
#5
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Posted 15 March 2007 - 02:18 PM
The Globe and Mail's story:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home
As for a Yonge extension, I wonder if the TTC would even consider that without capacity-relief measures in place. Yes, it's an obvious extension, but the service is already under considerable strain, and the Viva phase 2 improvements will only increase the problem.
The one saving grace of a Spadina extension is that it potentially allows YRT to divert a lot of riders over to Spadina. I would not be surprised if a general agreement to do so ends up being part of the subway plan.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home
As for a Yonge extension, I wonder if the TTC would even consider that without capacity-relief measures in place. Yes, it's an obvious extension, but the service is already under considerable strain, and the Viva phase 2 improvements will only increase the problem.
The one saving grace of a Spadina extension is that it potentially allows YRT to divert a lot of riders over to Spadina. I would not be surprised if a general agreement to do so ends up being part of the subway plan.
David
#6
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Posted 15 March 2007 - 03:04 PM
R. Serbey, on Mar 15 2007, 01:31 PM, said:
Politics aside, I find it odd that York Region would have even considered building a subway in that area.
You think they would have focused their energy on extending the Yonge Line to Richmond Centre. The travel demand in that area is extremely high. Sometime down the road, both Toronto, and York are going to be forced to extended the subway, or build a totally grade seperated LRT line into York Region.
You think they would have focused their energy on extending the Yonge Line to Richmond Centre. The travel demand in that area is extremely high. Sometime down the road, both Toronto, and York are going to be forced to extended the subway, or build a totally grade seperated LRT line into York Region.
For whatever reason, York and Vaughan thought it would be wise to have the new Vaughan Corporate Centre connected to the subway. Route restructuring in Woodbridge and Maple (and possibly west Thornhill) will bring in more people both to this new "downtown" and the subway station.
As for a grade separated LRT, I believe that is to be the final phase/incarnation of VIVA. By then they could probably redeploy the current VIVA bus fleet to routes that should be upgraded to the VIVA-style service like Jane, Major Mack, and Rutherford.
Hopefully by then GO will be able to beef up its service on the Richmond Hill line to provide some sort of relief to the Yonge line.
#7
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Posted 15 March 2007 - 09:47 PM
GO's Richmond Hill line will never be able to offer much relief to the Yonge Subway. Heavy rail can never provide anywhere close to the capacity of subways, and it's too far to the east to be a direct competitor.
The pressure on Yonge will never be fully relieved until a parallel subway line is built to the east, much as how the University/Spadina is the relief to the west.
Dan
The pressure on Yonge will never be fully relieved until a parallel subway line is built to the east, much as how the University/Spadina is the relief to the west.
Dan
#8
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The Future of the TTC...
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Posted 15 March 2007 - 11:15 PM
I think TTC got their hopes higher when Harper announced money for the extension. Im glad to see that someone around here is looking to the future with high hopes for a better city. I just hope that Harper and GB (TTC leader - cant spell his name 
) see eye t eye on this, and a transit fund is created. If not, as I always say, we need to shove the issue down Harper's throat until he accepts the situation and does something about it.
) see eye t eye on this, and a transit fund is created. If not, as I always say, we need to shove the issue down Harper's throat until he accepts the situation and does something about it.
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#9
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Toronto, the GTA and the GGH!
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Posted 15 March 2007 - 11:39 PM
I wonder how much of this proposed plan isn't simply politcal. TTC Planners have said several times that LRT isn't the only solution needed for Toronto. You still need subways, along with LRT, BRT, and others. Fine, an LRT Line may be great in specific corridors, but eventually you're going to have to bite the bullet in certain areas that need a subway, and not just the completion of the Sheppard Line, but new lines as well.
Yes, it will be very expensive, but most of the subways that will likely be looked at in the future should've been built years and years ago. LRT will not meet the demand of a subway, if a subway is warranted in a specific corridor...they're simply not interchangeable when subway capacity is needed, and if you are looking at fully grade-seperated LRT (fully underground or fully above grade), you might as well be building a Subway or Monorail, technologies which are better suited for fully grade-seperated applications.
Yes, it will be very expensive, but most of the subways that will likely be looked at in the future should've been built years and years ago. LRT will not meet the demand of a subway, if a subway is warranted in a specific corridor...they're simply not interchangeable when subway capacity is needed, and if you are looking at fully grade-seperated LRT (fully underground or fully above grade), you might as well be building a Subway or Monorail, technologies which are better suited for fully grade-seperated applications.
#10
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Posted 15 March 2007 - 11:42 PM
smallspy, on Mar 16 2007, 01:47 AM, said:
GO's Richmond Hill line will never be able to offer much relief to the Yonge Subway. Heavy rail can never provide anywhere close to the capacity of subways, and it's too far to the east to be a direct competitor.
The pressure on Yonge will never be fully relieved until a parallel subway line is built to the east, much as how the University/Spadina is the relief to the west.
Dan
The pressure on Yonge will never be fully relieved until a parallel subway line is built to the east, much as how the University/Spadina is the relief to the west.
Dan
Well if the LRT plans work and they build the Don Mills line, this could help
#11
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Posted 16 March 2007 - 07:26 AM
Wow! Today's G&M article at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home has some details:
---
Sources say the centrepiece is a $2.2-billion, partly underground line along Eglinton Avenue, from Kingston Road in the east to Pearson Airport in the west.
Sources say other routes in the plan, which one city hall source said was rushed in order to come out before the federal budget, include:
-- An $835-million line along Finch Avenue West, from Highway 427 in Etobicoke to Finch subway station on the Yonge line;
-- A $675-million line on Don Mills Road, from Steeles Avenue East to the Bloor subway line;
-- A $630-million line on Jane Street;
-- A $555-million line from Don Mills Station that runs along Sheppard Avenue East to Morningside;
-- A $630-million line on Morningside Avenue that continues onto Kingston Road;
-- A $540-million waterfront west line.
----
If this is accurate, it goes well beyond anything previously announced and gives us
- new north/south routes in the east and in the west, plus a relatively central one on Don Mills.
- An extension of the Sheppard subway as LRT
- an equivalent east-west line on the west side on Finch
- a full-service line across Eglinton including underground segments, presumably in the central parts)
- the waterfront west line (doesn't mention terminus but for these dollars I would assume it's to Long Branch)
For years we've seen people post fantasy subway maps here. For once, the TTC is providing us with its own fantasy plan, albeit in LRT form instead of subway. Certainly capacity on Yonge may not be an issue with this kind of a grid. The capacity problems are a direct result of a lack of a grid, but this would give us that grid.
The key to making all of this work is to not just have dedicated ROWs but to give the vehicles absolute signal priority. When a streetcar/LRV is approaching a light, it should get a green light within seconds. Stops should also be "express" style so that the vehicles are not stopping every block. If done right, this grid will get rapid transit very close to everyone in the city.
Even for those of us out here in Durham, it will be exciting since the north/south line on Morningside and westward on Sheppard and Eglinton will provide real options for DRT to connect to. A Sheppard LRT could even be easily extended onto Highway 2 to Oshawa at some point in the future.
---
Sources say the centrepiece is a $2.2-billion, partly underground line along Eglinton Avenue, from Kingston Road in the east to Pearson Airport in the west.
Sources say other routes in the plan, which one city hall source said was rushed in order to come out before the federal budget, include:
-- An $835-million line along Finch Avenue West, from Highway 427 in Etobicoke to Finch subway station on the Yonge line;
-- A $675-million line on Don Mills Road, from Steeles Avenue East to the Bloor subway line;
-- A $630-million line on Jane Street;
-- A $555-million line from Don Mills Station that runs along Sheppard Avenue East to Morningside;
-- A $630-million line on Morningside Avenue that continues onto Kingston Road;
-- A $540-million waterfront west line.
----
If this is accurate, it goes well beyond anything previously announced and gives us
- new north/south routes in the east and in the west, plus a relatively central one on Don Mills.
- An extension of the Sheppard subway as LRT
- an equivalent east-west line on the west side on Finch
- a full-service line across Eglinton including underground segments, presumably in the central parts)
- the waterfront west line (doesn't mention terminus but for these dollars I would assume it's to Long Branch)
For years we've seen people post fantasy subway maps here. For once, the TTC is providing us with its own fantasy plan, albeit in LRT form instead of subway. Certainly capacity on Yonge may not be an issue with this kind of a grid. The capacity problems are a direct result of a lack of a grid, but this would give us that grid.
The key to making all of this work is to not just have dedicated ROWs but to give the vehicles absolute signal priority. When a streetcar/LRV is approaching a light, it should get a green light within seconds. Stops should also be "express" style so that the vehicles are not stopping every block. If done right, this grid will get rapid transit very close to everyone in the city.
Even for those of us out here in Durham, it will be exciting since the north/south line on Morningside and westward on Sheppard and Eglinton will provide real options for DRT to connect to. A Sheppard LRT could even be easily extended onto Highway 2 to Oshawa at some point in the future.
David
#12
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GO Transit. Orion V. 2025.
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Posted 16 March 2007 - 09:12 AM
DavidH, on Mar 16 2007, 07:26 AM, said:
Wow! Today's G&M article at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home has some details:
---
Sources say the centrepiece is a $2.2-billion, partly underground line along Eglinton Avenue, from Kingston Road in the east to Pearson Airport in the west.
Sources say other routes in the plan, which one city hall source said was rushed in order to come out before the federal budget, include:
-- An $835-million line along Finch Avenue West, from Highway 427 in Etobicoke to Finch subway station on the Yonge line;
-- A $675-million line on Don Mills Road, from Steeles Avenue East to the Bloor subway line;
-- A $630-million line on Jane Street;
-- A $555-million line from Don Mills Station that runs along Sheppard Avenue East to Morningside;
-- A $630-million line on Morningside Avenue that continues onto Kingston Road;
-- A $540-million waterfront west line.
----
If this is accurate, it goes well beyond anything previously announced and gives us
- new north/south routes in the east and in the west, plus a relatively central one on Don Mills.
- An extension of the Sheppard subway as LRT
- an equivalent east-west line on the west side on Finch
- a full-service line across Eglinton including underground segments, presumably in the central parts)
- the waterfront west line (doesn't mention terminus but for these dollars I would assume it's to Long Branch)
For years we've seen people post fantasy subway maps here. For once, the TTC is providing us with its own fantasy plan, albeit in LRT form instead of subway. Certainly capacity on Yonge may not be an issue with this kind of a grid. The capacity problems are a direct result of a lack of a grid, but this would give us that grid.
The key to making all of this work is to not just have dedicated ROWs but to give the vehicles absolute signal priority. When a streetcar/LRV is approaching a light, it should get a green light within seconds. Stops should also be "express" style so that the vehicles are not stopping every block. If done right, this grid will get rapid transit very close to everyone in the city.
Even for those of us out here in Durham, it will be exciting since the north/south line on Morningside and westward on Sheppard and Eglinton will provide real options for DRT to connect to. A Sheppard LRT could even be easily extended onto Highway 2 to Oshawa at some point in the future.
---
Sources say the centrepiece is a $2.2-billion, partly underground line along Eglinton Avenue, from Kingston Road in the east to Pearson Airport in the west.
Sources say other routes in the plan, which one city hall source said was rushed in order to come out before the federal budget, include:
-- An $835-million line along Finch Avenue West, from Highway 427 in Etobicoke to Finch subway station on the Yonge line;
-- A $675-million line on Don Mills Road, from Steeles Avenue East to the Bloor subway line;
-- A $630-million line on Jane Street;
-- A $555-million line from Don Mills Station that runs along Sheppard Avenue East to Morningside;
-- A $630-million line on Morningside Avenue that continues onto Kingston Road;
-- A $540-million waterfront west line.
----
If this is accurate, it goes well beyond anything previously announced and gives us
- new north/south routes in the east and in the west, plus a relatively central one on Don Mills.
- An extension of the Sheppard subway as LRT
- an equivalent east-west line on the west side on Finch
- a full-service line across Eglinton including underground segments, presumably in the central parts)
- the waterfront west line (doesn't mention terminus but for these dollars I would assume it's to Long Branch)
For years we've seen people post fantasy subway maps here. For once, the TTC is providing us with its own fantasy plan, albeit in LRT form instead of subway. Certainly capacity on Yonge may not be an issue with this kind of a grid. The capacity problems are a direct result of a lack of a grid, but this would give us that grid.
The key to making all of this work is to not just have dedicated ROWs but to give the vehicles absolute signal priority. When a streetcar/LRV is approaching a light, it should get a green light within seconds. Stops should also be "express" style so that the vehicles are not stopping every block. If done right, this grid will get rapid transit very close to everyone in the city.
Even for those of us out here in Durham, it will be exciting since the north/south line on Morningside and westward on Sheppard and Eglinton will provide real options for DRT to connect to. A Sheppard LRT could even be easily extended onto Highway 2 to Oshawa at some point in the future.
HOLD THE F*** UP! Isn't there already an LRT along the WATERFRONT??? 509 HARBOURFRONT??? Why replace and LRT line with another LRT line? Whats the point? It would be a waste of money to replace a LRT live which is only about 11-10 years old? I mean, this line isnt even 20 years old yet and they wanna replace while its still young??? WHOA! A little too weird for me.
A/C, A/C, A/C, Ordinary... How I detest the ordinary buses.
#13
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High floor buses and high floor buildings
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Posted 16 March 2007 - 09:35 AM
ttcgeek, on Mar 16 2007, 09:12 AM, said:
HOLD THE F*** UP! Isn't there already an LRT along the WATERFRONT??? 509 HARBOURFRONT??? Why replace and LRT line with another LRT line? Whats the point? It would be a waste of money to replace a LRT live which is only about 11-10 years old? I mean, this line isnt even 20 years old yet and they wanna replace while its still young??? WHOA! A little too weird for me.
#14
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Josefstädter Straße U || Friedrich-Engels-Platz
- Location:York Region
Posted 16 March 2007 - 09:35 AM
question, will the LRT be like the one on spadina with a gazillion stops or stops ever so often like viva? cause if the TTC wants to move people fast and lots at a time i think it would be more viable to go with the layout viva has. ohh and i heard somewhere that the vechiles running on these LRTs will be in trains 
. also i'm surprised that the TTC didn't think about putting a LRT on steeles as well, plus given that steeles is pretty wide at some sections it would be relatively easy to put a LRT in. well at least the TTC is moving in the right direction, now toronto can look like a european city 
. ohh i was wondering, for the ROWs would it be cheaper to use grass in between the tracks or using concrete? if the used grass then it would make it green, enviromentally friendlier and the grass would probably cushion the tracks so they produce less noise 
, can't wait for this LRT to be completed
. also i'm surprised that the TTC didn't think about putting a LRT on steeles as well, plus given that steeles is pretty wide at some sections it would be relatively easy to put a LRT in. well at least the TTC is moving in the right direction, now toronto can look like a european city . ohh i was wondering, for the ROWs would it be cheaper to use grass in between the tracks or using concrete? if the used grass then it would make it green, enviromentally friendlier and the grass would probably cushion the tracks so they produce less noise , can't wait for this LRT to be completed
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#15
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Posted 16 March 2007 - 09:44 AM
ttcgeek, on Mar 16 2007, 09:12 AM, said:
HOLD THE F*** UP! Isn't there already an LRT along the WATERFRONT??? 509 HARBOURFRONT??? Why replace and LRT line with another LRT line? Whats the point? It would be a waste of money to replace a LRT live which is only about 11-10 years old? I mean, this line isnt even 20 years old yet and they wanna replace while its still young??? WHOA! A little too weird for me.
Anyway, details should be announced at 10:30.
David
#16
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Josefstädter Straße U || Friedrich-Engels-Platz
- Location:York Region
Posted 16 March 2007 - 09:55 AM
here is an article frm the star:
http://www.thestar.c.../article/192608
TTC plans light rail web
Mar 16, 2007 04:30 AM
Tess Kalinowski
John Spears
Staff Reporters
Only three days before the federal government releases its budget, the Toronto Transit Commission is unveiling an ambitious blueprint for a light rail system that would crisscross the city far beyond existing and planned subway lines.
The 60- to 80-kilometre web of light rail would cost about $2.4 billion, said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.
Some insiders say the plan would improve transit access to virtually every corner of Toronto. It's expected to closely follow the blueprint Mayor David Miller laid out in his election platform last fall, which emphasized dedicated light rail lines along the waterfront, Sheppard Ave., Finch Ave., and north from the Scarborough Rapid Transit line.
The hitch?
The city doesn't have the money yet, despite an announcement last week of new federal and provincial funding that will allow the extension of the Spadina subway line into York Region.
Giambrone stopped short of calling today's announcement an implementation plan with firm schedules and costs.
But he said, "You'd be hard-pressed to build an entire light rail network, looking at the existing environmental assessments, in under 10 years."
He also said the city expects to move ahead with the help of a share of gasoline taxes.
That would be in addition to a substantial slice of the $2 billion federal transit strategy for which Miller and other big city mayors were calling last week.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Premier Dalton McGuinty pledged about $1 billion last week for regional transit improvements. But with a budget, federal and provincial elections looming, and unprecedented public concern for the environment, some transportation experts say there's hope more money will flow for transit.
"There's a tremendous amount of concerted, multilateral pressure that I've never seen before," said transportation consultant Ed Levy.
The mayor's election platform spoke about light rail vehicles running on dedicated rights of way as part of a network of transit lines, including:
A dedicated transit corridor on Finch Ave., in part utilizing the hydro right of way, to connect north Scarborough and north Etobicoke to the subway.
A west waterfront line linking Etobicoke to Union Station.
A line connecting the Sheppard subway with Scarborough Town Centre.
Extending the Scarborough Rapid Transit (SRT) line to northeastern Scarborough. Since the SRT is due to wear out by about 2011 in any case, it's the subject of a separate planning process.
A dedicated bus line on Yonge St. from Finch Ave. to Steeles Ave.
A dedicated bus line on Kingston Rd. from Victoria Park Ave. to Eglinton Ave.
Building a dedicated rapid transit line along Eglinton Ave. W., connecting the St. Clair transit right of way to the airport.
Although the plan has been in the works for some time and studies are already going ahead in areas such as the Don Mills corridor, "there are going to be some surprises," Giambrone said.
The TTC blueprint could reduce traffic congestion and pollution and make transit a viable option for more commuters, but it represents a significant expense.
Light rail, which costs about $30 million a kilometre, can be built faster and cheaper than subways, which cost about $250 million to $300 million per kilometre.
That's part of the reason the TTC has shifted its emphasis to light rail, said Councillor Brian Ashton, who is also a member of the Greater Toronto Transit Authority.
"It's cheaper and it also begins to reflect on the suburban reality," he said.
As the city tries to curb sprawl and intensifies development along the avenues of strip malls in Etobicoke and Scarborough, "light rail or street cars become the solution," he said.
He called the subway extension, which will bring the Spadina line two stops into York Region, a signal of how transit will need to connect with Toronto's neighbours in future.
Scarborough councillors yesterday said they're prepared to wait for a subway as long as the TTC goes ahead with interim improvements to the SRT and delivers better service in north Scarborough, particularly in Morningside Heights.
"If (the TTC plan) doesn't incorporate that, you will be hearing about that," said Councillor Michael Thompson.
The city is already planning an extensive refurbishment of the SRT by 2015, including 44 new cars.
That's expected to cost between $300 million and $500 million, rather than the $1.2 billion it would cost to add two subway stops, he said.
"We want a spider web of mass transit to touch every corner of Scarborough," said Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker, who referred to today's announcement as "a miracle plan."
"This plan that's coming out (today) extends that spider web to every single inch of the city of Toronto. It puts new transit facilities in every single ward," he said.
"If you have LRT from one end of the city to the other, it's going to be spectacular."
It could also present an opportunity to consider buying two distinct types of streetcars – compact ones for downtown routes, and larger ones in more suburban areas, said Councillor Adam Vaughan.
"You've got two very different streetscapes."
With narrow streets and high demand for frequent service, the TTC should consider running smaller streetcars that can more easily negotiate turns and slide into underground stations, he said.
For suburban routes, bigger and roomier vehicles might be useful on less frequent but reliably timed routes, he suggested.
Historically, the TTC has been reluctant to buy differing vehicles, Vaughan said.
"It's always one size fits all. But this could be the time to change the thinking."
http://www.thestar.c.../article/192608
TTC plans light rail web
Mar 16, 2007 04:30 AM
Tess Kalinowski
John Spears
Staff Reporters
Only three days before the federal government releases its budget, the Toronto Transit Commission is unveiling an ambitious blueprint for a light rail system that would crisscross the city far beyond existing and planned subway lines.
The 60- to 80-kilometre web of light rail would cost about $2.4 billion, said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.
Some insiders say the plan would improve transit access to virtually every corner of Toronto. It's expected to closely follow the blueprint Mayor David Miller laid out in his election platform last fall, which emphasized dedicated light rail lines along the waterfront, Sheppard Ave., Finch Ave., and north from the Scarborough Rapid Transit line.
The hitch?
The city doesn't have the money yet, despite an announcement last week of new federal and provincial funding that will allow the extension of the Spadina subway line into York Region.
Giambrone stopped short of calling today's announcement an implementation plan with firm schedules and costs.
But he said, "You'd be hard-pressed to build an entire light rail network, looking at the existing environmental assessments, in under 10 years."
He also said the city expects to move ahead with the help of a share of gasoline taxes.
That would be in addition to a substantial slice of the $2 billion federal transit strategy for which Miller and other big city mayors were calling last week.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Premier Dalton McGuinty pledged about $1 billion last week for regional transit improvements. But with a budget, federal and provincial elections looming, and unprecedented public concern for the environment, some transportation experts say there's hope more money will flow for transit.
"There's a tremendous amount of concerted, multilateral pressure that I've never seen before," said transportation consultant Ed Levy.
The mayor's election platform spoke about light rail vehicles running on dedicated rights of way as part of a network of transit lines, including:
A dedicated transit corridor on Finch Ave., in part utilizing the hydro right of way, to connect north Scarborough and north Etobicoke to the subway.
A west waterfront line linking Etobicoke to Union Station.
A line connecting the Sheppard subway with Scarborough Town Centre.
Extending the Scarborough Rapid Transit (SRT) line to northeastern Scarborough. Since the SRT is due to wear out by about 2011 in any case, it's the subject of a separate planning process.
A dedicated bus line on Yonge St. from Finch Ave. to Steeles Ave.
A dedicated bus line on Kingston Rd. from Victoria Park Ave. to Eglinton Ave.
Building a dedicated rapid transit line along Eglinton Ave. W., connecting the St. Clair transit right of way to the airport.
Although the plan has been in the works for some time and studies are already going ahead in areas such as the Don Mills corridor, "there are going to be some surprises," Giambrone said.
The TTC blueprint could reduce traffic congestion and pollution and make transit a viable option for more commuters, but it represents a significant expense.
Light rail, which costs about $30 million a kilometre, can be built faster and cheaper than subways, which cost about $250 million to $300 million per kilometre.
That's part of the reason the TTC has shifted its emphasis to light rail, said Councillor Brian Ashton, who is also a member of the Greater Toronto Transit Authority.
"It's cheaper and it also begins to reflect on the suburban reality," he said.
As the city tries to curb sprawl and intensifies development along the avenues of strip malls in Etobicoke and Scarborough, "light rail or street cars become the solution," he said.
He called the subway extension, which will bring the Spadina line two stops into York Region, a signal of how transit will need to connect with Toronto's neighbours in future.
Scarborough councillors yesterday said they're prepared to wait for a subway as long as the TTC goes ahead with interim improvements to the SRT and delivers better service in north Scarborough, particularly in Morningside Heights.
"If (the TTC plan) doesn't incorporate that, you will be hearing about that," said Councillor Michael Thompson.
The city is already planning an extensive refurbishment of the SRT by 2015, including 44 new cars.
That's expected to cost between $300 million and $500 million, rather than the $1.2 billion it would cost to add two subway stops, he said.
"We want a spider web of mass transit to touch every corner of Scarborough," said Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker, who referred to today's announcement as "a miracle plan."
"This plan that's coming out (today) extends that spider web to every single inch of the city of Toronto. It puts new transit facilities in every single ward," he said.
"If you have LRT from one end of the city to the other, it's going to be spectacular."
It could also present an opportunity to consider buying two distinct types of streetcars – compact ones for downtown routes, and larger ones in more suburban areas, said Councillor Adam Vaughan.
"You've got two very different streetscapes."
With narrow streets and high demand for frequent service, the TTC should consider running smaller streetcars that can more easily negotiate turns and slide into underground stations, he said.
For suburban routes, bigger and roomier vehicles might be useful on less frequent but reliably timed routes, he suggested.
Historically, the TTC has been reluctant to buy differing vehicles, Vaughan said.
"It's always one size fits all. But this could be the time to change the thinking."
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#17
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Posted 16 March 2007 - 09:55 AM
Greater Golden Horseshoe Transit, on Mar 16 2007, 12:39 AM, said:
I wonder how much of this proposed plan isn't simply politcal. TTC Planners have said several times that LRT isn't the only solution needed for Toronto. You still need subways, along with LRT, BRT, and others. Fine, an LRT Line may be great in specific corridors, but eventually you're going to have to bite the bullet in certain areas that need a subway, and not just the completion of the Sheppard Line, but new lines as well.
Yes, it will be very expensive, but most of the subways that will likely be looked at in the future should've been built years and years ago. LRT will not meet the demand of a subway, if a subway is warranted in a specific corridor...they're simply not interchangeable when subway capacity is needed, and if you are looking at fully grade-seperated LRT (fully underground or fully above grade), you might as well be building a Subway or Monorail, technologies which are better suited for fully grade-seperated applications.
Yes, it will be very expensive, but most of the subways that will likely be looked at in the future should've been built years and years ago. LRT will not meet the demand of a subway, if a subway is warranted in a specific corridor...they're simply not interchangeable when subway capacity is needed, and if you are looking at fully grade-seperated LRT (fully underground or fully above grade), you might as well be building a Subway or Monorail, technologies which are better suited for fully grade-seperated applications.
If you consider the patterns of growth in Toronto(slow), and the patterns of growth in the 'burbs(fast and thinly spread out), you are going to realize subways will not be needed anytime soon. And building subways is still going to be expensive, and lightly used. Growth in Toronto simply isn't there is even think about "future growth". We have to think in the short term.
I think the only corridor that really needs a full fledged subway is the Yonge Corridor. Be it a extension, or a parallel line like Smallspy said.
TTC planners, and engineers are biased. They ALWAYS say subways are the anwser. Because of this, we have Mel's Folly, and soon Sorbara's Folly. Subways are complex to build. They allow planners, and consultants to keep their jobs. You notice in the Spadina EA, LRT/BRT wasn't even looked at thoroughly?
Yet, in the EA for the Downsview Bus Lanes, LRT was included?
Correct me, but I think after the Kilping, and Kennedy extensions were built, the TTC actually said an alternative to subway construction is needed because there is only a few corridors left to justify such an investment.
This plan is not political, this is TTC finally getting the best investment for the current financial buck. A plan that actually serves areas with huge transit demand, compared an 8km subway line that is going to be lightly used outside the peak hours for decades. There might a chance, it would be closed in the off peaks, and weekends!
TTCGeek: You do realize, the Waterfont is not limited to the area between Bathurst, and Bay?
Actually, I could add more. With this network, York Region, and Durham Region could easily build their own LRT networks, and connect to the TTC network, and allow vehicle to run seamlessly on each network.
This is assuming that the Regions will be able to agree on the track gauge.
#19
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Posted 16 March 2007 - 10:04 AM
R. Serbey, on Mar 16 2007, 09:55 AM, said:
Actually, I could add more. With this network, York Region, and Durham Region could easily build their own LRT networks, and connect to the TTC network, and allow vehicle to run seamlessly on each network.
This is assuming that the Regions will be able to agree on the track gauge.
This is assuming that the Regions will be able to agree on the track gauge.
Alternatively, the TTC could extend lines outside of the city itself and operate them in the same way that bus services are operated for YRT. And of course, we can't discount the possibility of the GTTA taking over some or all of this.
Note that these other links being posted are basically reiterating yesterday's Star story, which was a rehash of Miller's election promises. The Globe story contains much that is new. We'll very shortly find out who is right, or more right.
David
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